Curse

ammad2006 · Nov 18, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. Many people have forgotten that the majority of Guild Wars players are casual, because that was Guild Wars original target audience, was it not? But elite areas only attract the elite players, which is the community that is the most likely to use speed clears and gimmicks and in turn, harming the economy. That is because the rewards from the Elite areas are way above the head of the casual player. I remember when I first realized Obsidian armor could cost over a million gold. That price was way over my head as a casual player. The most money I had ever had at once was 100 platinum. The rewards from the elite areas only have use to the group of hardcore players, which is also the group that will devise speed clears and gimmick team builds. Remember Sorrow's Furnace? The loot from Sorrow's actually had use to the casual player. Those greens, while expensive, could be easily obtained by a casual player in a balanced group. And there were also very few gimmicks in Sorrow's furnace. And that green was also useful to that player. I propose a few ideas that will deter the elite "farmers" from elite missions while attracting casual players.

Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks.

Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.
The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway.

Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas
This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team.

TaggSilar · Nov 18, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks.

Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.
The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway.

Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas
This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team.

Improving AI intelligence is probably far too much for A-Net to handle at the moment. Plus it would most likely make monks the primary targets, thus having them completely stacked with enemies, overwhelmed, and killed within seconds.

To make all mods and inscriptions only available to elite areas is far too extreme. This makes it even much harder for casual players to succeed because as much as some people won't like it, there will always be gimmick builds. PUGS that form for elite areas are most likely destined to fail and lets face it, quite a few alliances can't field enough members to form an organized team. Not to mention prices on inscriptions and mods would probably skyrocket.

MagmaRed · Nov 18, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Elite areas already provide inscribable weapons - from completion and the reward chest. Restricting inscription slots to weapons in elite areas only goes against what you are wanting to do - open it up to CASUAL players. Making things easier will make farmers able to get more, faster, which is also going against what you want. Sorrows ALWAYS had gimmicks. Keg/Gear tanking was used extensively until Factions was released and Rits got item spells that had Anet change the monster AI. Even without the keg/gear trick, people still used 1 tank, 1 bonder, 1 healer, 1 MM, 1 SS, and 3 nukers for a long time. Then it switched to BP teams. Gimmicks have been there since it opened.

AI improvement would be nice, but only if they also do so for heroes, hench, and NPCs. However, I don't forsee that as an easy task, nor a likely one to see happen.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 18, 2009, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars.

Not even bothering to read past that. Look at what you just said and ask yourself again why that's a problem. I underlined it in case you wouldn't catch it.

Quote:

Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions

Nerf junk like Shadow Form, 600/Smite, and Cryway first.

Quote:

Improve the enemy AI

Okay...

Quote:

and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.

No. There is nothing wrong with how the concept currently works. If they really wanted to do this, introducing some kind of monster like the Kournan Spotter would be necessary, and it still probably wouldn't make much of an impact. Teams would just prepare themselves to attack their enemies at a farther distance away.

Quote:

Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas

You want elite areas to appeal to casuals? Well, casuals are probably going to spend a lot more time playing the rest of the game, and totally denying them the chance to pick up weapon modifiers seems like a joke. Some people probably wouldn't even do elite areas regardless, and then they'd be forced to pay extra cash for these kinds of bonuses that should, for the most part, be easily obtained and abundant.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 18, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Just make it so we can use full hero parties, bam, done, fixed.

draxynnic · Nov 18, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Even being able to bring henchmen in would help - the chance of succeeding completely might be slim, but it would give people who haven't had a chance to try the area an opportunity to familiarise themselves a bit before looking to join a party.

Incidentally, ectos and shards do have value for the casual player - if you don't intend to ever go for the armour, you can sell them.

KZaske · Nov 18, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. ...snip...

Maybe you should re-read what you said. They are considered teh elite areas for a reason, they were never intended to appeal to the casual player. Perhaps you should research what the developers said when they announced them.

Not signed, no way no how.

Shrike942 · Nov 18, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

/not signed

I wouldn't say I'm an "elite" player but I am certainly not casual. I occasionally enjoy doing an elite mission though even with a PUG. ;D

Cuilan · Nov 18, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I think they should do the opposite. Make FoW and UW painfully hard for any monk, rit, sin, or dervish to farm or speed clear it.

Killerminds · Nov 18, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Elite (occasionally spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the elite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, having a privileged status perceived as being envied by others of a lower line of order

Wouldnt that make them not elite anymore....

Pauli · Nov 18, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

@ OP

First of all, I'm very very very casual for some time, and the last thing I'm having problems with is completing all kinds of PvE content.

PvE content like the DoA, for example, was always about specific builds working, and the job is always done in a fixed way. Its because the monsters act in a scripted (very very predictable) way. In short, it PvE.

The content is extremely easy when its being completed in the well known ways. What other way is there to try to raise the difficulty bar in PvE? AI is AI. Its artificial, its scripted, predicted and players will always find builds that work best against the monsters. You want to lower the level so you can have it in carious ways, which makes it as easy as any game tutorial, or easy mode (anything that's not hard mode). Easy mode was defined by A-Net as being the tutorial for the hard mode. They said so quite clearly (official site).

I agree, however, about making every weapon inscribable and enlarging the monsters' aggro zone ("bubble").

Its not even about Hardcore(/elite/whatever) vs casuals. Every casual player is able to complete that content, and very easily too. The builds are well known, and the way you should act is also well known. All you need to do is use those builds in the scripted way you were told and... voila. Dont you want to do that? Dont play there. Its the only thing that makes those areas different than playing the campaign at normal mode.

iTwilight · Nov 18, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. Many people have forgotten that the majority of Guild Wars players are casual, because that was Guild Wars original target audience, was it not? But elite areas only attract the elite players, which is the community that is the most likely to use speed clears and gimmicks and in turn, harming the economy. That is because the rewards from the Elite areas are way above the head of the casual player. I remember when I first realized Obsidian armor could cost over a million gold. That price was way over my head as a casual player. The most money I had ever had at once was 100 platinum. The rewards from the elite areas only have use to the group of hardcore players, which is also the group that will devise speed clears and gimmick team builds. Remember Sorrow's Furnace? The loot from Sorrow's actually had use to the casual player. Those greens, while expensive, could be easily obtained by a casual player in a balanced group. And there were also very few gimmicks in Sorrow's furnace. And that green was also useful to that player. I propose a few ideas that will deter the elite "farmers" from elite missions while attracting casual players.

Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks.

Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.
The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway.

Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas

This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team.

The 2 highlighted titles say enough.
You wish to tone down the dificulty for balanced groups by upping the AI? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Do bare in mind that, as gimmicky as Imbagon is, its called "A good use of skills". Thereby not making you invincible and there are still conters.
Imbagons are also commonly part of balanced groups, regardless of what their name stands for.

Nechrond · Nov 18, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

What? Casual players are GW's target audience? That's ridiculous. The target audience has always been more hardcore gamers. Which is why GW is a lot more difficult than, for example, WoW. And also why all the grinding in the world won't make you beat a better player in PvP.
An elite area in a game like GW SHOULD be really hard.

kedde · Nov 18, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Easy, the areas aren't meant to appeal to that part of the playerbase.
Either you keep on being casual, and probably too bad or with too little time, or you go more hardcore and put off more time on getting good enough and having the time to do them.

It's as simple as that.

Pauli · Nov 18, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

The basic problem with what he claims is that those areas arent for casuals. This is just not true. You must take the well known builds that work well there, and use them in the scripted and well known way and.... voila. What is it that's not for casuals here? It doesnt take too long to finish any kind of PvE content, and it requires almost no skill, therefore it is for casuals. The only difference is that you cant take whatever builds or classes you want, but then again, there's the easy mode in which you can explore the world with whatever builds/classes you want.

In short: There's no reason to change those areas so that each and every build will be enough to complete them. Its the only difficulty method PvE has to offer. AI is always the same and players will learn how to use it to their favor. Always.

Tenebrae · Nov 18, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

That suggestion is great but seeing how anet made HM ..... dont think its gonna happen.

MirkoTeran · Nov 18, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

The target audience has always been more hardcore gamers.

Wait what? Did I miss a memo?

Pugs Not Drugs · Nov 18, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killerminds

Wouldnt that make them not elite anymore....

You guys area misinterpreting the point I am trying to make. The elite areas aren't really elite, because they are so easy to clear with a gimmick build. I suggested these changes to make a balanced group viable to play in elite areas, but still difficult. So in fact, the areas would be harder than they are now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

@ OP
PvE content like the DoA, for example, was always about specific builds working, and the job is always done in a fixed way. Its because the monsters act in a scripted (very very predictable) way. In short, it PvE.

And that is the problem. Having "elite" areas like that just promotes gimmicks. If they monsters adapted and responded to common builds, the elite areas would be much harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTwilight

The 2 highlighted titles say enough.
You wish to tone down the dificulty for balanced groups by upping the AI? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

You obviously didn't read my post. I said tone down the difficulty by reducing the huge number of mobs, but at the same time, improve the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

An elite area in a game like GW SHOULD be really hard.

Elite areas are not hard currently. They can easily be cleared easily with gimmicks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Which is why GW is a lot more difficult than, for example, WoW. And also why all the grinding in the world won't make you beat a better player in PvP.

That is why it appeals to casuals. Playing 10 hours a day will not make you any better than the guy who plays 1 hour a day

Nechrond · Nov 18, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Elite areas are not hard currently. They can easily be cleared easily with gimmicks.

Point. But in my opinion, a better fix would be to add a random selection of new bosses to the mobs, each of which is specifically designed to be a pain in the ass for at least one of those gimmick builds.

Quote:

That is why it appeals to casuals. Playing 10 hours a day will not make you any better than the guy who plays 1 hour a day

We obviously have different definitions of hardcore gamers. A grinder is not a hardcore gamer to me, just someone who spends a looooong time playing very casually. A hardcore gamer to me would be one willing to actually use his brain, use the wiki etc. to build a decent character.

MasterIceSlayer · Nov 18, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Nothing in Guild Wars is difficult, once you figure out how to tackle it. If you mean SF sins or meta-builds are "gimmicks", who cares. I can remember the first time I went into FoW normal mode, I never thought I would finish it. Nowadays, I feel that as long as I am in a group of smart players willing to stick it out, HM is a piece of cake, almost regardless of builds. It all boils down to understanding what you are up against and being in a party that knows what they are doing. That way you know where to go, how to pull, and how to kill. So is knowing an area well, or being a savvy player, a "gimmick"?